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10 March 2011 - 8:36am
#1
JenkNZ
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Zeitgeist

Zeitgeist to me seems a dangerous hijack of those of us looking for a clear path into correcting man-kinds destructive path. I have only seen the first Zeitgeist video and from what I have seen the movie uses conspiracy theories (Religion is an anthropomorphized myth based on the stars, 9/11 was an inside job and Global markets are controlled by the illuminate) as a basis rather than using mankind’s proven problems we are about to endure. My fear is that we loose forward thinking revolutionary minds to the ambiguous cloud that is the Zeitgeist movement in worship of Peter Joseph under the false guise of ‘the truth’ behind the world. In retrospect, if those convinced change their habits to decrease the strain on resources then I guess it’s a positive thing (albeit at the risk of isolation from ‘non-truthers’)

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10 March 2011 - 9:10am
#2
Rimu
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The first one was rubbish,

The first one was rubbish, the second was better (similar to "Money as Debt"?) and the third one is absolutely awesome so far. I'm half way through it - it's 3 hours long so it takes a few goes at it.

Just skip to the third one.

As with any opinionated documentary, they tend to leave things out that don't fit the narrative and often opinions are presented as facts. So do your own research before jumping to any wild conclusions. It's all good mind-food though - stuff to chew over.

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10 March 2011 - 7:22pm
(Reply to #2) #3
Rimu
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Just finished the second

Just finished the second half. In the second half it goes into a fair bit of techno-fantasy where robots will build everything for us and all we need to do is ask for stuff and it will be made for us.... Yeah..

But, even so, there are many interesting nuggets of ideas mixed in there which I found fascinating and illuminating.

Enjoy, with a grain of salt.

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10 March 2011 - 12:13pm
#4
JenkNZ
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So with the Zeitgeist masses

So with the Zeitgeist masses accepting the human death march, the solution posed is the Venus project. In interest I visited their site, and was presented with images of a future utopia, underwater cities, our energy needs would be met by solar/hydro/geothermal means. The major lynchpin to the proposed future is dependant on the Resource based economy, where a socialistic allocation of all the natural resources belong equally to each human inhabitant on the planet. I find the ideals are results of a ‘wouldn’t it be cool if’ session, rather than a real motion toward localised self sustainability. Even the promise of “a system based on machine automation rather than human labour, freeing all people from meaningless and repetitive jobs”
This radicalised concept in essence seems great, but if falls far too short of meeting our current position and taking steps toward an obtainable sustainable future.
I’m just concerned the opportunity for the masses of concerned inhabitants ready to make concerted motion toward a prepared future may be lost in the utopia posed by the Venus Project. Phase one to them is to make videos, Phase Two is to make a feature film, Phase Three is to build a City, Phase Four is to build a theme park. I think mankind needs a realist, survivalist communal effort rather than investing all our hopes and dreams in one mans vision of the perfect future.

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10 March 2011 - 5:53pm
(Reply to #3) #5
Rimu
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Statement of principles of the Zeitgeist Movement

Yes. I had a read of their 'statement of principles of the Zeitgeist Movement' at http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf and came to a similar conclusion.

Look at the end of page 56 of that PDF. They start completely seriously talking about a global government that allocates and produces all goods for everyone and that government is... wait for it.... a computer. Yes, we are to be ruled by a computer that knows all. The PDF goes on for pages and pages, describing the database of all knowledge at the middle and a global network of sensors and so on.

The Zeitgeist Movement, if it exists, is a complete techno fantasy. It is a vision of the triumph of technology and science over all problems.

Pointless.

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11 March 2011 - 9:57am
#6
Irongoat
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one man can change the world

If all it took was a few changes to the idea plan he had
which would be true as in theroy i should away work but in pratice sometimes it just dosent we all know that

However if were all to move this way why would the world be so bad
think about it
when we wanted to work it would be to improve on what we wanted after we have given enought time to this job improvement
we would be rewarded with time for free to go anywhere what is bad and wrong about that
at the moment we have to save and pay if we cant afford we only dream to do it
why not now dream to live on mars, under the ocean, In the centre of the earth, in space, maybe own/look after/manage a place where people can have what they want
we all have different dreams and we are as people can think of great ideam weather they are young old stupid or smart it just takes one

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12 March 2011 - 7:38pm
#7
lomuland
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Zeitgeist

I think it's great to get the ideas out there at least.

Wow a world without money, I'm guessing most people can't even conceive of such a place.
But TVP has come with a very plausible way in which it could work.

I especially liked the bits in the movie about genetics. I'm sure humans aren't born greedy.

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13 March 2011 - 10:46am
(Reply to #7) #8
Andrew
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gardens

We are already doing it , at least one small aspect, got a piece of land growing veges and no need to buy so not utopia, i think its a great concept ;) . We have a river running along side it so we are building a waterwheel to automate the watering of the garden, applying technology to solve problems.. not such a bad concept ya know!

The worlds problems wont be fixed by people complaining and attacking good ideas, but by people taking POSITIVE actions themselves to be the change we wish to see on the world.

For those attacking someone trying to provide practical solutions to the world problems using common sense and proven scientific processes and means already in use today, what are YOUR solutions? and if you don't have them where do you get off attacking people who are expending so much energy and time trying to help even the ungrateful complainers, who appear not to be making any positive contribution.

or maybe its just another troll wanting to derail very real solutions being proposed, what we DO know is the current financial system does not work, FACT most of the countries in the world are on the verge of bankruptcy (US is at 14.2 trillion in debt and that was their debt ceiling! but they will keep printing worthless money and increase the legal amount they can borrow up to around 15 trillion, then prolly 17, 20 where does it end?)

Agree skip first 2 Zeitgeist moving forward is quite different and the facts verifiable.

If we started to deal more with facts and accepted scientific methods perhaps the world would not be in such a dire situation, environmentally economically and socially - more people kill themselves each year than die on our roads... do you really think things are working well?

I for one am TAKING action as best I can..I hope everyone else can say the same.

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14 March 2011 - 12:42pm
(Reply to #8) #9
JenkNZ
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Hi Andrew, sorry if there was

Hi Andrew, sorry if there was a misunderstanding, I wasn't as you say ‘trolling’; I think any discussion is positive, surely? I was merely commenting on the direction correction for humanity. I couldn't agree more with mankind’s current path, which is exactly why we are both on this forum I’d imagine. Perhaps you could be more civil and less aggressive as to where I 'get off' questioning Zeitgeist? I felt my concern as valid.

I was under the impression we are here to help and assist each other, open to discuss theories, planning, predictions, etc.. and put our best foot forward. Discussing what half a million Zeitgeist followers depict as the be all and end all of where we should be headed is surely relevant, especially on this forum. My concern is that Zeitgeist propagates the Venus Project as the solution to our current problem, which would dismiss all other possible solutions, which is my main cause of my concern,. The minute we stand and salute a single sect, ie the ‘Venus Project’ (Venus Project says itself “The Zeitgeist Movement is the activist arm of The Venus Project)”we will loose out on all other research, from all leaders, from all visionaries, from all eco-warriors.

The visions in Venus project require resources, taken form the earth, with a population of 9 billion by 2030, that would strain the planet to breaking point, perhaps 20% of our population could live like this but as all resources are allocated evenly to all members on earth (under VP social order), it’s unsustainable. As stated earlier if this was step by step process, watch the movie, get amped for a change, then what? All I see from the Venus Project is thousands of drawings of shiny future buildings, cities, cars, boats… I looked though the manifesto and got to the 'your challenge' section, looking for steps to take, and I’m told I should think of a world without poverty, war, hunger.. OK, now what.. where are the steps.. the steps are donate to help them build a city and a theme park, for the advancement of a sustainable human race. This whole movement, whatever the intentions, it all ends at a store where you can buy autographed photos for $100, but wait that’s not all, order now and for $290 you can get 4 DVD's and 4 Audiobooks for free! Step with care my friend, if you even tried to donate to TT you will find no bank account.

It is my opinion (of which I am entitled on this forum) that VP donations toward an proposed eco-city and theme park in the US and purchases of Venus Project T-shirts are not the steps ecologically concerned humans benefit most from taking .

And questioning on 'my great ideas'. I just believe in reducing dependency by what ever means necessary from things that cost money, Food, Oil and Energy being the big 3.
I felt my concern regarding the Hijack of like minds toward Planet Utopia by way of a checkout was valid. I would appreciate your rebuttal to be more civilised than your initial reply.

Kind Regards

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15 March 2011 - 12:57pm
(Reply to #9) #10
Tom Vigor-Brown
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Hi Jenk "My concern is that

Hi Jenk

"My concern is that Zeitgeist propagates the Venus Project as the solution to our current problem, which would dismiss all other possible solutions, which is my main cause of my concern"

The venus project is the solution. The venus project is essentialy the idea of a new way, what makes up that new way is as much your right as anyone elses - the concrete solutions to that new way will inevetebly come from you and I and others. The examples and models created by jaque are simply his ideas as to how it could work. The most important thing here is to realise the ideals he is trying to convey. For example; He is not saying all citys have to be concentric, what he is saying is that a circle is the most efficient way to meet the requirements of the given city with its parameters in his particular model. If a citys requirements are best met with a square layout then make the layout square. The venus project is basicaly saying design anything to meet the required needs in the most efficient way - instead of the most profitable way. As profit and efficiency do not relate. Its the idea of efficiency which the venus project advocates. The true nature of future buildings/citys/things will be the product of the best way at the time, the best way at the time will be the product of all the worlds peoples views on the given task/project/problem. So Jen, when you say the Zeitgeist propagates the Venus Project as the solution to our current problem, which would dismiss all other possible solutions - all other possible solutions are a possible solution - as long as they are efficient/the best.

Now if your not for efficiency / the best way of doing things then stick with the market and money systems which are the best at acheiving the opposite.

Secondly,

"The visions in Venus project require resources, taken form the earth, with a population of 9 billion by 2030, that would strain the planet to breaking point"

Now if we got a broken down figure of all the resorces available and devided each resorce totall by nine billion id say you are right - we would all have a fuck load of different shit in front of us but not allot of the same thing. And nothing left. This is not what the venus projet intends to do - it would be inefficient. What t.v.p is saying is regard the worlds recorces as everyones and intelegently manage thoes resorces for the bennifit of everyone. As in make golf clubs available to anyone who wants to play golf, when they want to play golf. There is no point in every golfer on earth owning a set of clubs which get used 10% of the time. That strains the earth to breaking point. I mean look at auckland motor way at rush hour, millions of cars each carrying one maybe two people, how inefficient is that. It isnt required. A maglev train could do a far better job at moving these people to the required destination with the use of far less resorces. And being run by magnets - no energy and no maintanance, again preserving resorces.

The mile stone are not something for the zeitgeist movement or venus project to work out, The milestones will be the result of what you, me and everyone does as we emerge. Time will tell. So dont expect to be told the steps - the steps is what WE must work out

regards Tom.

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15 March 2011 - 5:28pm
(Reply to #10) #11
newzealdan
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Good job at explaining TVP

Good job at explaining TVP Tom.

I would like to add, that we are all in this together.
We all advocate a future where mankind is in a symbiotic relationship with the environment rather than a parasitic one, like we are today.
At The Zeitgeist Movement, we wish to do this with the best technological tools, equipment, and knowledge that we have available to us today.

I am new to the concept of Transition Towns, so I am not entitled to have an opinion on it.

I would like to point out though, that when we do get to the point in time where Oil becomes largely unavailable and overpriced, and the economy feels the pressure from scarcity - if the culture and society of the majority of the populace has not changed into something more in favour of either Transition Towns or The Venus Project then we are in trouble.
In an anarchy situation if food was to ever becomes scarce, and the populace were hungry - guess where they would be heading - thats right, to your front door.

So to conclude, we all need to work together.
Im sure The Zeitgeist Movement and the Transition Towns organization can come to a mutually benefitting arrangement.

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16 March 2011 - 1:57am
(Reply to #11) #12
Rimu
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I have news for ya! Oil is

I have news for ya!

Oil is scarce and expensive now, and has been since 2006. The economy is feeling pressure from scarcity now. In many countries the population is hungry. These things have already caused governments to fall in several places.

The time for grand schemes using advanced technology was in the 70's, when the Venus Project was originally envisaged. We missed that boat. The Zeitgeist Movement is 30 - 40 years too late.

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30 April 2011 - 12:01pm
(Reply to #11) #13
carcus27
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"I am new to the concept of

"I am new to the concept of Transition Towns, so I am not entitled to have an opinion on it."

Why not have an opinion Dan, it seems Rimu is quite new to TZM but he has loads of opinions on that...

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16 March 2011 - 2:10am
(Reply to #10) #14
Rimu
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No disrespect, but I don't

No disrespect, but I don't think it's a new idea at all. It's communism but with computers added. NB communism is different to socialism or stalinism, which were as close to communism as the real world ever got, on a large scale.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_communism "communism is a stage of social development where material and productive forces are advanced to a degree where actual freedom (freedom from necessity, and thus from wage labor and alienation from work) for every person is possible. The state apparatus becomes redundant because classes cease to exist"

I'm not saying communism is bad therefore TVP is bad, I'm saying it's been tried before. There is a lot we can learn from history when it comes to that idea.

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16 March 2011 - 7:44am
(Reply to #9) #15
Andrew
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Good discussion

Hi Jenzn, Please don't mistake passion for aggression, sorry if taken as such people can be so quick to judge things that that they have spent very little time trying to understand, which can be irksome.We are pretty much on the same page, things are very bad out there and we have not seen the worst of it yet, environmentally, socially, economically. There are many groups working in various ways to drive positive solutions which is fantastic TT being one of the more established and better organized but others also with great ideas & initiatives, there is freecycle, freefood,(even a guy building houses for free for people!) innermost gardens, aro gardens all great positive things and dare I say it, Zeitgeist as well, but thats just a label the people supportive of zg would be supportive of all the above groups. This is grass roots change, reducing carbon foot print, increasing local food productions, striving for basic free food and necessities for living no matter what the groups are called.. I've govts spent less on expensive cars and trips overseas for their families maybe we wouldn't need so many foodbanks! resources are being extravagantly wasted by our "leaders"

Watch out for the privatization of water thats on the horizon and already happening in Auckland with the meter introduction and not like the public have a say like the Supercity which they didn't even bother to get public referendum on

I'm afraid I am not as articulate as I'd like to be, I'm just a simple person trying to navigate the rough seas in a little boat at risk of getting swamped. So oftimes misunderstood.

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16 March 2011 - 9:26am
(Reply to #14) #16
JenkNZ
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All is well Andrew, I guess

All is well Andrew, I guess my sceptical/realist side is well engrained. If James went on the Breakfast show and propagated the Venus Project describing Frescos' future goal and the techo-communist social order rather than what he did mention of working for our communities, I feel as though he wouldn't have got through to the inhabitants of our towns, and that was the danger I spoke of, our towns dismissing the notion of change out of pessimism of a future fantasy land. The difference between Grassroots communities and TVP is huge, yet closer than that of the current path our consumer driven society is on.

We may not be on the same page, but at least we are on the same book… and thats something I think we can celebrate.

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16 March 2011 - 10:28am
(Reply to #15) #17
Tom Vigor-Brown
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I think coming from a

I think coming from a mechanical engineering degree (not yet completed) helps massivly in understanding frescos' futuristic ideas as completely viable. It seems when I put foward the ideas of say a mag lev train (anchient technology) to say an accountant (HAHA) the responce is laughter simply because they see the technology as.. wel they cant see it, similarly they wouldnt know what makes the wheels on their car rotate, but they will agree something does. So to sum it up seeing is beleiving for these people. And this is a massive problem as they regard frescos work as a futuristic possibility - which it is not - more a present probability of 1 (as far as feisability is concerned). The reality is, if for some maraculous reason the world united today and said ohk, lets try this venus thing, then imediatly all frescos ideas could be built today. I mean no more technology would need to be disscoverd. Maths and physics agree with his models as of today, after all it was math and physics which arrived jarque to these completely workable concepts. And from there with the absence of money and market systems technological breakthroughs would begin. My point here is to address Jens concern with how the venus project site leads to options of purchasing things (t shirts and what not) to fund prototype citys. So while i agree its a bit of contradiction, to build a prototype would give these diss beleivers proof, and then maybe they will awaken to how poorly we currently live and jump on board. Thus being a great acheivment.

Onwards, I am new to this transition town thing and am all for it, I dont see one clash between it and the zeitgeist / tvp agenda. I look at the zm as the mass wanting change, the tvp as the ultimate ideal (bare in mind my explination of it previous post) and this transition town thing as a major stepping stone. As when shit hits the fan, its this idea thats going to save us (feed us etc) through the slow decline that is enevitable. So im keen to get amoungst. Im in Rotorua and there aint one here! Spose thats me putting my hand up

Tom

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16 March 2011 - 12:05pm
(Reply to #16) #18
Rimu
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Coming from a computer

Coming from a computer science degree and 10 years of programming, I can tell you now that Frescos' ideas regarding the capabilities of robots and computers are way off base. There is no artificial intelligence that is capable of the feats described by TVP and despite 60 years of trying we are not much closer to that goal now than we were when we began.

Any computer system has rules embedded in it by the programmer. A computer system that managed the world's resources would do so based on the values and assumptions of the people who programmed it. The programmers would embed their values into the code without being aware they are doing so - one's culture is invisible to oneself.

The problems with TVP are not technical, they are social. TVP side-steps all of that by claiming that all problems are technical and can be solved with the scientific method, which is a bizarre claim. TVP assumes that the scientific method is free of value judgements, which is of course impossible as long as it's humans doing the implementation of the method.

The scientific method works by asking questions and then testing an answer to see if it fits. Which questions get asked and which answers are attempted are inherently value judgements.

For an overly simple example: if I am a right-wing scientist trying to solve poverty I might ask "what is government doing to stop people from getting rich?" whereas a left-wing scientist might ask "how can we provide poor people with the things they need?" The questions you ask make all the difference, and usually that choice is not conscious.

TVP might try to avoid that by saying "well, let's just have a dispassionate computer ask all the questions" but of course the computer will have attitudes embedded in it by it's programmers.

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29 April 2011 - 10:06pm
#19
Ouch
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Sometimes asking nicely doesn't work

Transition Towns looks interesting.

Interesting also that the Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement have just parted company somewhat.

I do not speak for the Zeitgeist Movement.

TZM is an activism group. Activism takes many forms and can change within organisations over time. Unfortunately, sometimes if you wait for people to follow your lead, they just shoot you and feed you to their pigs and move on. Have a look at what you are up against. If the machine that runs your life were to unleash its power on you, you would crap your pants and wee yourself at the same time. As things get worse, people get worse - you will end up as dinner. We are in the age of fear already. It makes your mind shut down, you wouldn't even remember the number for the emergency services. The grit of life grates on some real hard - such as ones that can't afford a lightbulb, let alone a computer.

Heavy stuff eh! Just looking for some perspective.

As the Joker said, "Can't we all get along".

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30 April 2011 - 9:42pm
#20
MichaelWwoof
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Info

Just quickly as I don't have time to address the individual posts, if you want to understand the Zeitgeist Movement or the Venus Project go to the source. Cheers

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kb&Itemi...

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project-introduction/faq

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11 May 2011 - 10:31am
#21
skeinz
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The Shift

All good stuff Im hearing here, everyone's perspective credible and inquiring. I have viewed the third Zeitgeist movie and its very compelling. However, looking at your discussion it seems that Peter Joseph has his work cut out. You all come to the discussion with a very similar concern and sense of urgency but also with deterministic viewpoints that no doubt reflect your own experience and conditioning. Peter Joseph offers us some pretty credible science-based analysis to describe the way our essential natures are bent by the cultural, economic and political powers of the day, today's big 'bent' being capital"ISM" of course. I think he believes that if this process is revealed and understood, humankind will en masse reject today's toxic market paradigm. He has faith that we will also lay aside our obsession with "isms" and the like and get on with a new enlightened expansive thought paradigm. I do want to believe that non-profit based science can give us value-free solutions to global resource management. Would fee taking scientists, on the whim of a small grotesquely fearful elite, after setting up an anti-weapons shield that covers an entire continent, have the technical capacity at least to do a global resource stock-take for the 'common good' without the profit motive? I wonder. Im stymied though by the same reservations you all express. While we can agree the earth no longer has the capacity or time to indulge our current conditioning, we will continue to fiddle while Rome burns because we insist solutions MUST reflect OUR values. Peter Joseph's solution has to be considered because it brings logic and rationality to three critical concerns; the first being the urgent need to halt the drastic decline of the earth's life-carrying capacity; the second that science provides the most credible means to calculate the condition of remaining global resources; and thirdly that humans can and must step up to the idea that 'individual' and 'collective interest' are equal parts of our nature. If we take that to be our guiding 'value' our thoughts and ideas might well reflect that shift in consciousness. I reckon a computer can be programmed to reflect a simple survival-centred 'collective interest'. If that works then we will argue the detail later, if there is a later.

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22 May 2011 - 1:34am
#22
swiftideas
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I agree with JenkNZ Zeitgeist

I agree with JenkNZ

Zeitgeist is a series of films taking aim at our dominant economic ideology. Great. Those problems are significant and endemic. We have a flawed system and films that raise awareness and provoke discussion are a positive force.

However whilst inspring imagery, the macro solutions being proposed by The Venus Project are impractical and so potentially demotivating. Talk of centralized servers to manage global resource economies and new wealth abundance by robotic manufacturing is not a re-design of humanity, it is simply science fiction.

On the other hand, Transition Towns is a movement devoted to community resilience. It is lo-fi, practical, sustainable and decentralized by design. I can start today in my own neighborhood and don't need the permission of 6 billion others.

With deep consideration this practical approach can also represent an economic redesign through stewardship of environmental responsibility through better design. These economic principles are set out in; The New Economics - A bigger picture.

Heres hoping a film will popularize.

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